I'm not a bowl or tranny hater. But I know where to go to get my fill and I know where to suggest when some one asks. I don't see why that place needs to be Brunswick. STREEEEEEET.
Fitzy is also a 15 min skate away to add to that list.
Very true. And Fitzy is a hugely popular bowl and the best of the best will be there most days.
Coburg, as mentioned above, is a good example in this situation; The mini-ramp was an add on to the park, due to the fact that the bowl was too large to learn transition on. An 11ft bowl doesn't seem like the best option.
Pretty much everything that needed to be said was started above. There were some good images posted throughout the thread, but it seems pretty much nothing eventuated, except a large bowl, which has obviously been the main priority with the street section being crammed on the side as basically an after thought, with nothing new, innovative or exciting added, even with the 'revised draft'.
The process should be questioned here, as there wouldn't be this much backlash. Good design answers to a target market, in this situation it has answered to a minority; it's part of the process and it is understandable, although trying to push through with this design, when it is clearly underwhelming and not what people want, is the main issue in this instance.
Well said. The park could be so amazing if the money that is set aside for a bowl is instead put into making a quality experience. Shade sails? Taps? BBQ? More street stuff, small things, big things, things for all experience levels.
The comments on unused bowls, and wasted money are interesting, and could be explored here or in a new thread, so that future park designers have some more guidance from skateboarders to refer to.
Why are some of the bowls unused?
- are they too intimidating for the average skater?
- are they designed poorly,
- do they not have options for progression from beginner to advanced skating?
- are they in the wrong spot?
- are they in the wrong time?
- are they too big/small/shallow/deep/wide/narrow/lumpy?
Franga, Northcote, Meadow Heights, Point Cook, are mentioned as being poorly used, and every one of them both demand and reward advanced skaters.
There are just as many bowls that are used a lot, like Fitzroy, Newport, St Kilda, Heidelberg, Elwood, Cheltenham, the small bowl at Frankston, Mt Martha, Belco and even Bulleen.
Why are they so busy?
It looks like the proposed Clover will have some elements of the well used bowls, so it could be quite good.
The street section is also getting some really good ideas, so it should also come together nicely, and be an excellent addition to the incredible array of street features that are available for use between the bowl, and the many railway stations and bus stops servicing greater Brunswick!
Given that Skate parks are also expected to deliver community activity for all types of skate park users, even scooters, a lot of completely unacceptable compromises are made, but it also means way more skate parks than we would otherwise have.
On that score, my late addition to the wish list is;
- an Electric BBQ,
- and a drinking fountain with a built in dog-bowl!
Finally, I find it interesting that the wish list really gets going when the design process gets to the end stage, and how so many are demanding this and that and noting that they have not been heard.
If only you could have all been there at the start of the design process!
Get involved early, and get to skate what you want,
or get in too late and skate what what you get!
And thanks to Josh and everyone else that got in early and helped with the design.
Neeburn makes some very good points. Some bowls don't get used loads but there's just as many that are and I'm sure it's not because they have a nice view of a beach.
There must be support for the bowl or it wouldn't have got through at consultation stage. Not all of this bowl is 11 ft there's smaller sections and a roll in. Although I love skating Fitzroy it's tiny, if you don't build anything bigger than no one will learn to skate it. Frankston is a long way from central Melbourne compared to this one.
Also as Neeburn pointed out if you're unhappy about something get involved early, Josh started this thread in 2012 that's 2 years ago. There was loads of posts and images of clover bowls at the start so it's not as if the idea should come as a surprise. It takes a massive effort to get a park built and he's always on the case, so good on him.
I agree the street section didn't look the greatest but if some of the stuff in this thread gets incorporated then I think it can and will be great.
http://www.skateboard.com.au/bandits/read.cfm?forum=11&thread=90079that setup is much better then the drafts I've seen for brunswick. only issue is that brunswick will see a lot more traffic, so just add more on. slap in a clifton style plaza some tranny around the sides and maybe some diy/reservoir aspects.
this .. maybe even in a more lippy/tranny style like the famous barcelona spot.
I've been busy so I haven't been on this thread. Bibby that bank is similar to what has been proposed to take out a section of stairs in the revised plans.
Re the bowl, I don't reckon people would mind at all if the initial street section wasn't so lacking. There should be enough funds and space for both elements to be done proper. Will it be heavily sessioned regularly? No doubt. Bowl skating is bigger than ever. Having a 5 foot section and a roll in really opens it up.
I find it does undermine the whole process when all the street suggestions from this thread made it to the boards at the consultations, along with other great obstacles, were voted on and then didn't make it into the first draft design. Personally I find this the most important part of the process to focus on, and why it went a bit pear shaped. The second drafts were way better, and those that attended had the chance to modify the plans with the designers. The bank above was one of the additions from this.
It's pretty pointless not attending any meetings, all of which were with plenty of notice and easy to get to, and then trying to completely change everything at the final stages. I work a pretty inflexible job 50+ hours a week and was looking after my Mum all last year and still get to as many as I can. I attend to help skaters voice their ideas in a constructive way and not overtake the thing. Maybe if you guys attended more consultations you would be more effective than having a last minute winge?
What happens when skaters don't attend is stuff like this
http://www.skatespots.com.au/park/h-a-smith-park-skateparkAnyhow I'll see how the revisions are getting along. The last drafts of the street that were getting revised looked great.
The lanes are a great idea, I forget which direction I'm allowed to go at the skatepark all the time. The THPS style speed boost pad behind the quarter pipe is also very innovative.
What people seem to want is a quality street focused park in an area that is abundant with bowls. Once again, where is the survey data to suggest a bowl was top priority?
As mentioned, the meetings were scheduled at completely impractical times for most people to attend. Taking time out of work for a skatepark meeting would be a bit farfetched, hence the reason we are contributing to the forum discussion. What you’re able to do with you’re time Insomnia doesn’t apply to everyone else.
Also, people defending the bowl seem to think that the design process is done and dusted; there is no room for amendments or changes to the park, unless it’s the street section. The excavators haven't arrived at the park yet, nor has any concrete been poured. They are merely renders on a computer that can be changed, people are giving their opinion and are told to just quiet down and accept.
The fact that this thread has been around for 2 years was mentioned; wasn't open registration for the forums implemented quite recently? Also most people did not give their say until the drafts were out because they couldn't visualise the park, just a thought.
Ok just so everything is clear.....
You see taking time of work being "far fetched" for a $500k skatepark that would be your local. You don't attend any meetings at all yet incorrectly assume there is no demand for a bowl in conjunction with a solid street section. You don't seem to understand the cost of the design process as "they are just computer renders" (This is why it is more constructive to make amendments as opposed to redesigning the whole thing.)
I've requested an update on the street revisions and will post em when they are released. Hopefully you will be happier with it.
Josh, I don't think there are too many people that are requesting a redraft of the entire park just further consideration in regards to the bowl being a huge section of the park. For a very simple example take for instance Frankston- it has an awesome smaller bowl that is always being used and a massive bowl that is barely ever used. I understand that a core group of people want a massive bowl and they will continue to want that. The truth of the matter is there are very few of them for a reason, the general public wants things to skate that are fun. While it is probably great for some to tout that Brunswick will have "Australia's only clover bowl" the rest of the local skaters will just be bummed out...
Look it's pretty clear to see what's happening here. The different sections of the skate community have put forward their ideas for what they want (a bowl that has progressive sizes, is unique and caters to holding world class events+a simple, flowy and cutting edge plaza to fill the gap in Melbournes parks) People (myself included) were bummed on the initial street section drafts but generally pretty positive response (from my experience) towards the bowl. I can see how people would gather the bowl has used funds at the expense of the street. From the meetings and so forth I don't believe this should be the case. I appreciate that if the street section looked better in the first draft and contained more elements that were suggested and voted on the bowl wouldn't really present an issue for most.
Ok, so where to from here? I suggest we try to keep the all rounders & bowl crew happy as well as the street only focused crew. We need to keep working on the street section to make it much better and keep everyone happy. From the last drafts I saw this seemed to be well on the way. Alternatively you can lobby to have no bowl at all and expand the street section. In my humble opinion if think you have left your run to late for this, but good luck.
It is rare that a park has a decent enough budget to satisfy a good tranny+street section and Brunswick is such a project. We have a council and surrounding infrastructure to cater to world class events which will be a good thing for Vic.
Fact is you can't skate a bowl on the street.. The more variety the better. If you want street go and skate street, especially in Melbourne of all places (park footage doesn't matter anyway right?).
To be quite honest though you need a mix. The best parks I have skated (and I skate both street and bowls) have been the ones with the weird stuff you can't easily find skating street and plenty of banks, hips and quarters to keep you going. Pools and bowls included. Every park has a ledge and rail these days. Think outside the square and build the staff you CAN'T skate elsewhere.
The simple street obstacles are so people can learn new stuff. So easy to get a manny pad, flat bar and ledge or two right but is often a miss! There are not that many street spots you won't get moved on from, that negates the whole "if you want to skate street hit the city" thing. New Huntington Beach clover looks rad. So does the rest of the park
The average blow Joe would've told them all to go fuck themselves by now. Kudos to you Josh! You're doing an amazing job.
Yeah, well done Josh. I haven't read this whole thread but from what I've seen you're being very patient and listening to everyone.
I've been involved with things like this (more a side kick to Luke) and people don't realise how much time and effort gets put in by some people. So keep the criticism constructive and try to be ok with the fact that everyone might not get exactly what they want... But by the sounds of it Josh is trying to make that happen.
Well it looks like the park is going to be redesigned.
Showing up at the last minute and throwing a great big hissy fit has worked.
It is hard to believe that a world class bowl could be sacrificed for what....a rail, some steps and a couple of concrete blocks.
Doing anything for skateboarders is a thankless job!
As previously stated, if the suggestions for the street course from the forum and consultations were incorporated into a rad flowy street section and a bowl that caters to progression (Ie a 5ft, 8 and 11ft with a roll in) as well as world class events (Newcastle, Bondi, Wellington NZ) we would not be in this position. It is a knee jerk reaction to a vocal few that didn't bother top turn up to any of the meetings and partake in the process. The internet is predominantly negative by nature. If something is ok people say nothing. If they don't like it they pipe up. To cater to internet negativity as opposed to controlling the negative feedback and appeasing the client (the council) the designers have undermined the consultation process. From my internets....
It's very disappointing. The people that attended the consultations were trying to get a great mix of a solid street section and a bowl that can host world class events in Brunswick. Now they have to go back to the drawing board in the final design stages to appease people that didn't bother showing up and don't diversify their skateboarding. It undermines the whole consultation process.
Well that sets a great precedent, there's no way anyone will show up to consultations until the end now. Josh you have the patience of a saint. Anyway hope Brunswick doesn't end up another 5ft midi.
its nothing against you mate, but a lot of people can't get to the consults. just like in other public matters a lot of people can't get there when required. Sometimes progression is going to come in the form of an amazing street/plaza orientated park, not a heavy bowl and some street elements. brunswick is the perfect place for an L.E.S. / Stoner street park
Good thing the plans are for both bowl and street. Every body pretty much wins here, making the street bit as good as it can be should be the goal
